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 Post subject: Badger Mountains
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:21 pm 
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Location: Georgia - USA
As I mentioned in the topic about Igor Crater, my next attempt was going to be a mountain map.
I selected one and named it Badger Mountains because a badger is a tough little critter and this medium sized map looked like it was going to be a tough one to get going on. It turned out to prove that true.

Image

As you can see in the description of the Mountain Lakes terrain:
Quote:
Mountain Lakes - A difficult, near un-inhabitable map, with large mountain ranges dominating the landscape and deep 'loch' like lakes.

That description wasn't far off.

Image

As you can see from the mini-map, there's not a whole lot of inhabitable land, and stone is extremely scarce (all the white dots). I think I got about 2 or 300 and that was it. There's a bit more iron (all the brown dots), but it's not what I would call abundant by any means.
The upside is there is a small lake on the river (along with 5 other lakes). That should supply a good, steady supply of fish.

Image

You start out with, what looks like a good bit of everything needed, but that can be deceiving and lead one to be a bit too comfortable starting out.
The first 6 or 7 years was a real struggle with food (I lost 3 citizens to starvation in the first 4 years) and logs, and a stone quarry was essential, but there really wasn't enough open land to spare for a quarry, so a small one had to be used, thanks to the Tiny Compilation by Nomad. I also used Nomad's tiny mines for coal and iron, from the same mod.

Well, here I am, 11 years into the challenge and things are finally looking up, although logs are still a challenge, even with 3 forester huts and 6 foresters.
So far I'm only growing corn and peppers (that I got at the start of the map), since I haven't been able to build up enough spare resources to buy much of anything from the trader, although I did manage to scrape up enough to buy two cows.

Image

Image

You can see the Tiny Quarry just east of the main village, through the short tunnel.

Image

Let's look at the tunnel going north and see where it goes. BTW, I'm using the Cheap Tunnels mod by XXCV-Xez. It just makes sense to me that they would use the rock and stone they have to dig through to build the tunnel, especially on this map with available stone all used up in the first couple of years. Without that mod it would have taken years to get enough stone from the quarry to build this tunnel.

Image

I used the Flatten Terrain mod by GimmeCat, but I believe there's one included in Discrepancy's Small Village mod - Version 2 Beta. I need to look at that closer.
I also took the tips from our gracious host, Paeng's topic About Building a Tunnel Entrance, although I think I dug out a little too much.

Image

Image

The other side of the tunnel, to the north of the village, is another forester/gatherer/herbalist community.

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If we go east of the main village, across the bridge, we find yet another forester/gatherer/herbalist community, along with a cow pasture and the mines.

Image

Next I think I'm going to build a set of docks/warfs for a fishing dock, fish monger and move the trader out into the lake, once I manage to get enough logs to do it. Maybe, eventually I'll be able to get up enough trade goods to swap for some more crops to grow. Maybe get some chickens too.

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 Post subject: Re: Badger Mountains
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:16 pm 
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Location: 48°5’ north, 71°04’ west
Very nice town, the creative adaptation to the difficult terrain is great, really more than I could do. Mountain maps are just not for me. :drool:

I read you had food difficulties early on and can see you seem to neglect hunting and fishing. I also see few gathers and no beekeepers. I think with the smaller versions of hunters and gathers you should try to add more, and though expensive, (in DS), beekeepers are a great food source. With all this water fishing should by your cash crop, even a small dock can produce far more than the 100 needed to feed the worker. :hmmm:

As a farmer, I can say that neglecting the non crop foods early is a trap to easy to fall into. Did you start it to early? And again, storage-storage-storage. :grandpa:

Overall a very successful town, every one we build has challenges, and things that aren't perfect, thats why we play. :thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: Badger Mountains
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:49 pm 
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Cool map, nice lakes... I'm gonna try one of those soon - currently playing an easy DS map as well (the type where you get seeds, livestock etc., on a valley map)... a bit too easy for my taste, so I'll try a mountain map next, always liked those anyway :big-grin:

Hawk wrote:
11 years into the challenge

surprised you're up to 70 peeps already... and educated too... yeah, hardly any natural stone, that's tough...
* If you remember - please let me know how Kid's tiny mine plays out - how fast it depletes and wether the ruin can be removed or not...

Quote:
I believe there's one included in Discrepancy's Small Village mod

Not sure, but there is "Flatten" for sure in the DS Roads...

Good start again :thumbsup:

EDIT
btw, don't put too much hope in the fishmonger, that's still a WiP and hardly has any output yet... except looking good :winking:

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 Post subject: Re: Badger Mountains
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:34 am 
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Location: Georgia - USA
Denis de la Rive wrote:
Very nice town, the creative adaptation to the difficult terrain is great, really more than I could do. Mountain maps are just not for me. :drool:

I tried a few mountain maps in the beginning but found them a bit to difficult. Now that I have some game years of experience I find them a nice challenge and the plains maps a bit too easy, even on a hard start, which I generally prefer because you don't get any pre-built buildings. I like that as it let's you expand in your own fashion without having to worry about demolishing the pre-built buildings later in the game, which I have done.

Denis de la Rive wrote:
I read you had food difficulties early on and can see you seem to neglect hunting and fishing. I also see few gathers and no beekeepers. I think with the smaller versions of hunters and gathers you should try to add more, and though expensive, (in DS), beekeepers are a great food source. With all this water fishing should by your cash crop, even a small dock can produce far more than the 100 needed to feed the worker. :hmmm:

In the first 4 or 5 years I really didn't have any extra people to add more workers of any kind. With food and logs coming in so slow, the citizens weren't having any kids because I couldn't expand because I didn't have the extra workers or raw material, etc. etc. etc.
It was a bit of a catch 22 on this map. :bang:
Now that I'm starting to get more spare laborers I can add more food workers.
To add to that, I couldn't expand to other forest areas because I didn't have the workers, and as you can see, the first forest area I built, just to the northwest of the main village, isn't very big, due to the mountains so even adding more than one gatherer and hunter was a waste of time. I tried 2 of each but there just wasn't enough wild crops and deer for them to gather/hunt.
That's what made this map a challenge. :boxing:
Even expanding and adding other forest area, you can see the mountains really effected the amount of real estate for them, hence cutting down on the amount of trees, wild crops, etc. generated.

Denis de la Rive wrote:
As a farmer, I can say that neglecting the non crop foods early is a trap to easy to fall into. Did you start it to early? And again, storage-storage-storage. :grandpa:

See my comments above about hunters, gatherers, etc.
There's storage all over. I just tend to use the smaller barns in the forests because they take up less real estate which leaves more room for trees and wild crops. They may be hard to see in the screenshots though. I also used more cellars on this map than I usually do.
I really don't have a problem with storage. They never fill up beyond their limits so I see no need for adding larger barns than necessary.
Also I use small markets all over, especially in forests, so the storage isn't as critical.

Denis de la Rive wrote:
Overall a very successful town, every one we build has challenges, and things that aren't perfect, thats why we play. :thumbsup:

Thanks!

Paeng wrote:
Cool map, nice lakes... I'm gonna try one of those soon - currently playing an easy DS map as well (the type where you get seeds, livestock etc., on a valley map)... a bit too easy for my taste, so I'll try a mountain map next, always liked those anyway :big-grin:

Like I said above, now that I have a few game years under my hat I find the mountain maps to be an interesting challenge and the plains maps just too easy.
This start came with sheep & corn and pepper seeds. Like I mentioned, the only thing I've been able to afford from the trader is 2 cows.

Paeng wrote:
Hawk wrote:
11 years into the challenge

surprised you're up to 70 peeps already... and educated too... yeah, hardly any natural stone, that's tough...

It was a struggle, believe me. Like I said, I lost 3 people to starvation in the first 3 or 4 years. That really hurt expansion.
I've got to where I always build a school as one of, if not the first building on a map. On this map particularly, uneducated citizens would have been a real hindrance.

Paeng wrote:
* If you remember - please let me know how Kid's tiny mine plays out - how fast it depletes and wether the ruin can be removed or not...

Kid and Nomad are one in the same? I didn't know that. That's good to know.
If I play this map out until the mines run out, I certainly will.

Paeng wrote:
Quote:
I believe there's one included in Discrepancy's Small Village mod

Not sure, but there is "Flatten" for sure in the DS Roads...

Yep! That's where it is. Not in the village buildings. :facepalm:

Paeng wrote:
Good start again :thumbsup:

Thanks! It was a fun challenge.

Paeng wrote:
EDIT
btw, don't put too much hope in the fishmonger, that's still a WiP and hardly has any output yet... except looking good :winking:

Yea, I saw that in the Igor Crater map. You get a lot of variety, but not a lot of quantity, but it is kind'a cool. :winking:


Edit 1:
Paeng wrote:
Not sure, but there is "Flatten" for sure in the DS Roads...

I just checked by deleting the FlattenTerrain mod and the flatten tool in DS's roads still works, so the other mod isn't needed.

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 Post subject: Re: Badger Mountains
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:32 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:44 pm
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Location: Georgia - USA
Denis de la Rive wrote:
And again, storage-storage-storage. :grandpa:

Just an example. :big-grin:

Image

The same basic pattern is used on the rest of the map. :winking:

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 Post subject: Re: Badger Mountains
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:56 am 
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Location: 48°5’ north, 71°04’ west
Thanks for showing me. My bad! :redface: You mention limits, do you keep them low? I always add a zero at start and increase them when I reach that number. Also about hunting, I never have more than 1 since the kill limit is one deer every 2 months, but again I play without a hunting enhancement mod. :hmmm:

Hope you can develop it more. :thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: Badger Mountains
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:15 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:44 pm
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Location: Georgia - USA
Denis de la Rive wrote:
Thanks for showing me. My bad! :redface:

I figured you didn't see them. They are small and barely noticeable. :winking:

Denis de la Rive wrote:
You mention limits, do you keep them low? I always add a zero at start and increase them when I reach that number. Also about hunting, I never have more than 1 since the kill limit is one deer every 2 months, but again I play without a hunting enhancement mod. :hmmm:

When I play I try to establish a fairly even relationship between supply and demand. Consequently the limits are adjusted accordingly.
Obviously running short of anything isn't good, but to me, personally, having a great over-abundance of anything isn't good either, based on my play style. It ends up with the trader getting a bunch of stuff just to store, that probably can't be used for anything, although I do try to trade goods that are quite abundant, which requires checking the trader screen with the town hall screen every time a boat shows up.
It does require a bit of micro-managing, but that's what makes the game interesting, for me anyway. :big-grin:

Denis de la Rive wrote:
Hope you can develop it more. :thumbsup:

I'm working on it. I've built a wharf system with a fishing hut, fish monger, storage shed and trader. I've also extended the civilization out a bit to plant more crops.
I'm running into a problem now of having accessible land to build on. There's still a little bit but it's going to require more tunnels and bridges.

Which reminds me; in Paeng's previous post he mentioned that the fish monger was still in beta stage and currently doesn't produce a large quantity of fish, although it does produce a good variety. Here's a screenshot of 2 years worth of production for the fish monger.

Attachment:
fish-monger.jpg
fish-monger.jpg [ 15.13 KiB | Viewed 312 times ]

Not a lot of fish, is there? :laughing-loud:

I'll post some more shots of the continued work maybe tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: Badger Mountains
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:51 am 
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Well, turns out a map can become unsustainable, as is the case with Badger Mountains.
I got to a point where I had more families than houses (75 homes - 97 families). The problem is; adding more homes would have produced more citizens, but it got to the point where the map itself could not sustain any more people. Plus I ran out of buildable terrain, for the most part.

Herbs and logs (affecting firewood) were the major problem, along with food, although the food supply was able to keep just slightly ahead of the demand. I had the food limit set at 10,000 but was lucky to see 5,000 and more often than comfortable, less than 1,000.

I had 12 herbalists (some in inhabited places - most in the forests) but there just wasn't enough forested area for them to work.

This map probably would have been comfortably sustainable if I had stopped the population at 175 or so.

Anyway, here's the stats.

Image

I'm using the large mini-map here so you can see the details of bridges, tunnels, farms, stockyards, etc.

Image

I resized all the following images because I didn't see a need for the full sized versions.

Here's the main town. The graveyard in town is full. The graveyard just east of town is close to full. Without flattening more terrain, there really was no place else to build another graveyard.
The tiny stone quarry never did run out. It's at 54% remaining.
There's a woodcutter, blacksmith, tailor and school in town. I did build one of those personal gardens (Vegetable Garden mod by Nomad), but on this map it was probably a waste. Might be nice on a larger map.
Yes, having more woodcutters would help the firewood issue, but there wasn't enough logs to sustain more than one. I had 3 forest lodges and 6 foresters, and no place else to build more.

Image

This is far north-northeast of town. On the far east is an herbalist.

Image

This is far northwest of town. Just a lonely sheep rancher here.

Image

This is just east of town. The tiny mines never did run out either. The coal mine is at 66% remaining and the iron mine is at 85% remaining.

Image

This is far east-northeast of town.

Image

This is far southeast of town

Image

This is the road to the area above.

Image

Needless to say, I'm done with this map.

I'm thinking of trying Tom Sawyer's The North mod next, or maybe a larger Mountain Lakes map, or maybe just a plain ol' default mountain map. I'm not sure at this point.

I wanted to try the Stranded difficulty option available with the beta version of the DSSV, but the description says that you start with one family (2 adults, 2 children), 150 food, 3 clothes, 1 tool and 5 firewood, but when the map loads all you actually have is the family. No food, clothes, firewood, or tools.
I made a post about this over at the Nexus forum, but I don't know if he even checks that forum. He hasn't replied yet and that was 6 days ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Badger Mountains
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:54 am 
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Location: 48°5’ north, 71°04’ west
I can see why you stopped it, yet you did a fantastic job given the available terrain. :thumbsup:

I looked at the north, but its too much like home, (absent the reindeer), for me. Paeng did a nice test with it, so you will probably enjoy. :hmmm:

The beta of DS is a bit buggy from what I read, and he's currently moving from what I read on WoB. :shrugging:

If you want you can use the debug tool to customize your start, its what I do for my stories sometimes, add a few buildings, a bit more of this and that and you have your own custom start. I had this discussion more than once across several sites, its your game, make it so.

Looking forward to the next one. :winking:

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 Post subject: Re: Badger Mountains
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:20 pm 
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Denis de la Rive wrote:
The beta of DS is a bit buggy from what I read, and he's currently moving from what I read on WoB. :shrugging:

I guess that will postpone the V-2 Final. I guess I'll revert back to V-1.1. That's definitely a bug with the Stranded difficulty start. I do like the Mountain Lakes terrains in the V-2 beta though. A little more of a challenge than the default Mountain terrain.

I'm currently trying the Jack & Jill start in the DSSV 2 beta but not having much luck, but I got real close one time. I think it's just a matter of timing and one attempt I made I believe I was only about 10 seconds off of starvation for the two.
I guess the Adam & Eve mod is the same thing.

Denis de la Rive wrote:
If you want you can use the debug tool to customize your start, its what I do for my stories sometimes, add a few buildings, a bit more of this and that and you have your own custom start. I had this discussion more than once across several sites, its your game, make it so.

I downloaded the debug tool but haven't tried it yet. To me it seems like a cheat to use for actual game play, but could come in handy for testing mods.
I know the cheat codes for most of the games I play but rarely, if ever use them.

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 Post subject: Re: Badger Mountains
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:48 pm 
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Yeah, I played a small map for the mountain man challenge (vanilla), and it was as tedious :laughing:
(see the blog here...)


As for DS2beta - the unfinished things are mostly the diagonal bridges, and the fishmonger... most everything else plays fine, I been using it plenty.


Debug - well, as Denis said, you can use it to make up your own starting scenario... after that you can just ignore that button. Not sure where that would be cheating :winking:

And yeah, for testing it's a must...

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 Post subject: Re: Badger Mountains
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:36 pm 
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Location: Georgia - USA
Paeng wrote:
Yeah, I played a small map for the mountain man challenge (vanilla), and it was as tedious :laughing:
(see the blog here...)

I'll check that out.

Paeng wrote:
As for DS2beta - the unfinished things are mostly the diagonal bridges, and the fishmonger... most everything else plays fine, I been using it plenty.

As I mentioned a couple of posts up:

Hawk wrote:
I wanted to try the Stranded difficulty option available with the beta version of the DSSV, but the description says that you start with one family (2 adults, 2 children), 150 food, 3 clothes, 1 tool and 5 firewood, but when the map loads all you actually have is the family. No food, clothes, firewood, or tools.
I made a post about this over at the Nexus forum, but I don't know if he even checks that forum. He hasn't replied yet and that was 6 days ago.

Apparently there's slight bug in that too.
I didn't know about the diagonal bridge. That sure would come in handy. :drool:


Paeng wrote:
Debug - well, as Denis said, you can use it to make up your own starting scenario... after that you can just ignore that button. Not sure where that would be cheating :winking:

And yeah, for testing it's a must...

That's one way of looking at it. :roll-laugh:
I'll definitely have to check it out. It may not be what I think it is.

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